What are finance leaders saying about marketing right now?
A lot of finance leaders have their own marketing departments, but I think a lot of them look at certain areas of marketing and ask, "What's the return on investment?" If they're spending £2,000, they want to see around a £6,000 return. That's their strategy. Are they getting that at the moment? I'm not quite sure they are.

The main use is through LinkedIn, and several finance contacts have mentioned that visuals are working much better. If people can visualise something, they'll often buy into it or invest in it. People aren't reading much beyond the first line anymore, but if you can visualise it, you're halfway there.

Have expectations changed over the last few years?
I think so. A lot of the time when companies are under pressure, it's the marketing budget, the training budget and the learning and development budget that gets pulled. But often it's those very things that can help get you out of the hard times through the extra exposure they bring.

There's a lot of pressure on return on investment in business at the moment. It isn't necessarily buoyant times, and everyone's looking for their bang for their buck.

What separates businesses that see marketing as an investment from those that see it as a cost?
Over the years I've seen some that were really modern and others that had become quite stuck in their ways. A few locally have made a real push with marketing, social media and visuals. They've taken on specialist marketing people and they've almost elevated themselves into employers of choice.

Before, they expected their reputation to do all the work. Now they've taken marketing seriously and you can really see the difference. When we're briefing candidates, you want them saying, "I've seen that brand. I like the look of it. I'd love to work there." It's building that brand presence over time. The legacy, the loyalty and the trust all come from consistently showing people who you are.

Marketing isn't competing with finance. It's competing for confidence.

What gives finance leaders confidence to invest?
Finance leaders need to be able to visualise the return. If they can see there's something they're going to gain back from it, they'll often invest. If they can't, budgets become restricted. It's giving them that realisation that if you invest in this, you'll get what I call the rainbow effect.

Can you see across to the other side of the rainbow? And when we get there, what is it actually going to deliver? Most finance directors have their own marketing teams, but ultimately they're the people who say yes or no. If I was pitching into a business, I'd build a really clear case and say, "If we do this, within six months it's going to result in this."

What's the biggest mistake marketers make when talking to finance teams? 
Probably coming in with hare-brained ideas without enough substance. Finance Directors can be very measured. They're not sceptical for the sake of it, but they're responsible for holding the purse strings. If I was pitching into a business, I'd have testimonials, case studies and evidence. I'd be demonstrating that what I'm telling you is actually going to result in a return. Marketers often get excited about the activity. Finance leaders are asking, "What return is this actually going to bring?"

What metrics really matter?
If we run an event, how many leads are we going to gain from it? When we get those leads, how much revenue is that going to result in? As I mentioned earlier, if you work on thirds and my event costs £2,000, if I can see £6,000 worth of return then suddenly we're talking about a good result.

Every Finance Director has probably seen marketing ideas that haven't produced a return, which naturally makes them more cautious. The journey has to be measured, really clear and concise, and you almost have to take the finance director on that journey with you.

Are businesses looking for different skills from marketers today?
Marketing has definitely evolved. The reality is there are lots of people using AI tools now for content writing, but nothing beats the human element. If someone's been there, done it and has the experience to put a proper case across, that beats a direct AI response every time. I think we've almost gone full circle. We all thought we might lose out to AI, but actually sitting together face to face, like we're doing today, is still so important. I'd always say use AI for ideas, soundbites or captions, but don't use the whole thing because people will suss it straight away.

What do finance leaders wish marketing agencies understood better?
I think if you see any successful marketer out there at the moment, they're buying into the company's brand. Whenever you see a marketing team that's doing really well, they're entrenched in that brand. They live it, breathe it and believe it. I think that's half the battle.

If a finance team knows the person sitting opposite them really understands their business, that immediately feels like a partnership. 

Like in recruitment, everyone can run a process. But do you buy into the partnership? Because the partnership is much more important than the process itself. If you buy into the partnership, you become a confidant to the business. You become a sounding board, and that's where the really open conversations happen.

What advice would you give business owners deciding where to spend their marketing budget?
You can put out as much content as you like, but that's only as good as the attention it gets. My biggest belief is still face-to-face networking. Make sure someone from your business is out meeting people. For me, it's about targeted marketing rather than a scattergun approach.

Networking backed up with good LinkedIn content is a really powerful combination. If you know who's going to be at an event, target the people you'd like to meet before you even arrive. People still like engaging with people. You can often achieve more in two hours at the right networking event than two hours sitting behind your desk.